An Interview on Astral Projection and Lucid Dreaming

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astral projectionThere are accounts of astral experiences throughout history, in mythology, art and in sacred texts, and, although they are often described in symbolic ways, once you have out-of-body experiences it becomes apparent as to what they are referring to.

It’s possible to get the same kinds of experiences as those ancient people in the same ways they did, using techniques to astral project and have out-of-body experiences and lucid dreams. In this way anyone can explore some of the mysteries of life and death, make new discoveries about the nature of reality, and get spiritual teachings and esoteric knowledge.

This has profound implications. When you realize that you’re not your body, that you’re something more than physical matter, you can get access to life that is not limited by the body or the five senses, and then you start to question your whole existence – why you’re here and what you should be doing with your life. You wonder what’s real and what’s actually going on.

Q: What is astral projection?

Belsebuub: It’s an out-of-body experience where we are conscious of coming out of the body. Although people leave their body in a near-death experience and technically astral project, astral projection commonly refers to an experience of leaving the physical body and going into the astral plane that’s not caused by death or by being close to it. It’s also different from a lucid dream in which a person is conscious of being in the astral world from a dream, although both occur in the same dimension.

You mentioned lucid dreaming in relation to astral projection – where do normal dreams fit in with this scenario?

In normal dreams, we are in the same place as when we have an out-of-body experience – by place I mean dimension – because the body is left behind and you enter the fifth dimension with sleep and dreaming. The problem is that the process of projection is unseen, and when dreaming what’s normally seen are the projections of the subconscious, and they can just completely cloud out the reality of the fifth dimension. So in dreams, the subconscious becomes its own reality and we get stuck in it, and so you’re living in the scenarios of the mind, feelings and emotions. But, if you can know that you are dreaming then you can wake up there and realize where you are, you can look around and see that you are in another dimension, that you don’t have your physical body, but you have another body there. And then you’ve stepped out of the dream world into the fifth dimension consciously. And you can verify that by checking that you are in the astral plane, the fifth dimension.

Why would someone want to do this? Why would they want to get to the astral plane, and what can they do when they’re there?

Everyone is only alive here for a limited amount of time. It makes sense to look beyond that time, to look at the future beyond death. That can only really be done by having out-of-body experiences, and then walking the path to enlightenment.

Researching through theories, looking at other people’s accounts of near-death experiences or out-of-body experiences, and so on, won’t give you the experience for yourself. But if you can have out-of-body experiences, you’ll know that you’re not your body, and by exploring beyond it you’ll get verification of what exists there.

Some people think that the astral plane is just pure fantasy, and that’s because so many study out-of-body experiences theoretically and find there’s a lot of things which are clearly made up. But when looking at the research or accounts of others, they don’t generally distinguish between something that’s made up from the subconscious and actual objective experiences. Clearly there are experiences which are objective, where people have seen items and events taking place which are real, and have given testimony about them after they’ve returned to their body. Out-of-body experiences are difficult to replicate in studies, and in any case, science doesn’t have the means to study them properly, and so very little research is done on it. And really, if people do try to research these things, they’ll probably face ridicule from their peers.

So, without any sort of scientific backing, how can I know when I read something or hear from someone else about all the things that are going on there, how can I know that any of that’s true? Or how can I know that when someone tells me a technique that gets them to the astral, how can I know that it’s real?

Without any scientific backing, do you know that an emotion like anger is real?

Yes.

Why is that?

Because I feel it. I know when I’m angry; I know what makes me angry.

Right. And it’s the same thing for an out-of-body experience. It’s a real experience, it’s not imaginary. You go out of your body and you’re in another dimension. And if that happens to you, you know it’s real because you experience it – just like you experience being here now, or anything that you do in life that you know is real.

Reality has to be the foundation because if it’s not, then masses of imaginary scenarios as to all sorts of different kinds of reality can be proposed, but you have to come back to your own personal experience, as it’s from personal experience that any objective inner study starts. It’s just that in this, you’re studying the things which take place within, rather than simply studying things in the external world. And that’s the difference, that’s the bridge that science can’t cross. But you can do that through the study of self-knowledge, and by learning to have out-of-body experiences yourself.

Actually that raised an interesting point – someone once asked me, “If you’re studying astral things, do you tend to be sort of less grounded in life? Do you tend to be sort of very ‘spiritual’ and thinking higher things? Do you tend to be more detached from life?” That was a fear that they had, that to learn how to astral project, they’d be more detached from the physical world.

But it’s all reality; it’s all part of one’s life. A lot of people have out-of-body experiences, it’s just it’s not spoken about much. But it’s a normal, natural part of life, and they are no more taking a trip into fantasy world than we are when they are living here.

You said that a lot of people have astral experiences, but they don’t understand it, or they don’t know? How is that possible?

In studies about 55% of respondents say they have had lucid dreams, and those are dreams where they know that they’re dreaming. Yet when they happen people just consider it a strange dream, that seemed very real, which they don’t understand. There are not many people you can go to and discuss this openly with within society.

But over 10% of people have the kinds of out-of-body experiences that are from projecting out of the body. They’re not dreams, they happen in near-death experiences, illness or most commonly through sleep, and they usually take place in the astral plane. Just as in lucid dreaming, people are so conditioned that there’s hardly anyone to talk to. If society were more open, these phenomena would be more widely discussed. But OBEs are normal, they’re natural, anybody can have them, and anybody can learn to have them.

So, there might be people who are a bit apprehensive about doing something like this. We talk about near-death experiences and how you come out of the body, so someone might be a bit afraid of that. Is there anything that is dangerous or worrisome about practicing this sort of thing?

No, there’s nothing dangerous in it at all. Everyone goes into the astral plane every single night when sleeping and dreaming, and don’t come back the worse for it. There’s nothing in an out-of-body experience that can really harm you, you just come back to the body and wake up here just as when waking up after dreaming. There’s no danger in it at all – no more than sleeping.

Alright, so if I was interested in pursuing this, like maybe last night I had an experience that you spoke about, what can I do to pursue it, to make it happen again, and make it happen more often, to explore it?

You can learn how to have out-of-body experiences, to astral project and have lucid dreams. And for that, you can try a series of techniques, such as concentrating and visualizing, or chanting mantras when you’re going to sleep, and by learning how to wake up in dreams.

To what end? What can I gain from doing this?

A photo from the interview in Berkeley, California 2007

Well, first of all, you’re going to see that you’re not just your body. You are in it, but it decays, it is subjected to time; and in time, it’ll end. And it’s in your interest to find out whether there is something of you which survives your body. If you have a clear and objective out-of-body experience, you know that you’re not a body, you know that you exist and live in its absence, and that’s really profound.

You can also explore that dimension, and experience things that you cannot experience here. You can get access to secret teachings and knowledge. You can get your own learning about what you need to do in this life and what it is for. In myths and legends and religions, there are lots of Beings that are not earthly. You can actually see different Beings that live outside this dimension. You can also meet Beings from other planets there, because they also have out-of-body experiences, just like everybody here can.

So the wisdom that’s to be gained there is immense, and if you don’t search for it and don’t have out-of-body experiences, and don’t look into your dreams and understand them, you’re missing a valuable opportunities and immense learning experiences. It’s just a waste of time not to have out-of-body experiences and not to study dreams. The important thing is knowing how to do it, having the right techniques to do it.

If I was to do this and speak to one of these Beings that you talk about, how would I know that what they’re telling me is something worthwhile, or how could I verify perhaps what they’re telling me? If I was to wake up one morning and tell my wife I got all this information from someone, I might sound a little bit crazy…

But it’s your experience and you would know it for yourself. Our experiences are personal to us, although some we can share, but it’s your life. You shouldn’t expect that other people will understand what you go through there, because it’s your own learning. If you depend upon what other people think, you’ll never really get esoteric knowledge.

So, maybe to phrase the question in another way: I get some sort of information there which I feel that I need to act upon perhaps, or don’t know how to act upon, don’t know how to deal with. How might someone deal with that sort of situation? Is there some way of doing it?

The more knowledge you have about yourself, the more you’ll understand what goes on there. There’s a symbolic language in the astral plane, which you can learn through experience. And if you can do that, you can tap into the great mysteries and discover all sorts of things which you couldn’t imagine possible. But you need to really make the efforts to do it.

So something that I’m told there, I may not necessarily understand now, but it sounds like I will be able to at some point?

If you try hard enough, then you may be able to. There’s nothing guaranteed because it has to be worked for. But you may be able to understand things better later on through experience than you do now. It’s often the case that experience brings understanding. The more you have experiences out of the body, the more you’ll understand them.

So the goal really is to have as many experiences as possible, to build up some level of understanding?

Not so much to have many experiences, but to carry out a spiritual study, and to have objective experiences that are worthwhile. Anyone can just go out of the body and travel around a little and imagine lots of things, but it’s a wasted opportunity if it doesn’t lead to spiritual awakening. It’s much better if you can change yourself here, and develop inwardly, walking the spiritual path, then experiences in the astral world becomes a means for you to learn about what really matters.

If you can change and improve spiritually you’ll have more spiritual astral experiences and they become of great value, a great source of learning – but you have to earn them. So it’s not so much the quantity of astral experiences that counts, but the quality of them. And that depends upon the quality of the inner change that’s done here.

So the experiencing the astral plane in itself is not spiritual growth, it’s a part of spiritual growth?

In itself it’s merely stepping into another dimension; it’s another aspect of life just as this one is. But going there doesn’t mean that you are growing spiritually at all, it just means that you’re experiencing another dimension. To grow spiritually you need to do certain things here, then you can improve things over there, and then you can have the positive esoteric consequences of what you do here, over there.

As you change here, you begin to understand the different aspects of your psychology, then what happens in your dreams changes too. So if you’re less angry here, then you’re less angry in your dreams. And this applies to all the different kinds of emotions there are, all the different harmful traits and so on. As you clean them up here, at the same time you’re cleaning them up in the astral plane, in the dream world – and then you’re eligible for more advanced spiritual teachings, because you have changed. But you do need to work here in order to influence there, and that’s all part of a wider spiritual work.

Do you mean if I just stop being angry, if I maybe avoid angry situations or places or situations that make me angry, does that mean anger in my dreams will clear up, if I understand that right?

Clearing up anger here will clear it up from dreams, but the way you describe doing it would only have a small impact in your dreams. To really change anger in a dream, you would have to be able to study it thoroughly here, to be able to observe it and look at its different aspects: the way that it works, the way that it makes you act, the different feelings that it produces inside, and all that it entails. In studying you’re getting knowledge about the ego state, and the more you study it, the more you’ll bring out from inside yourself, and the more knowledge you have about what’s inside you.

It requires the ability to be able to see what’s going on inside, which is a technique that can be learnt. It will enable you to observe the different thoughts, emotions and feelings, and uncover what’s happening inside you. If you don’t do that, then it’s going to have a grip on you, it’s going to make you act and feel things in certain ways – all according to the program of nature.

So it sounds like it’s important to have, as you said, quality astral experiences. Dreams aren’t so important?

Dreams are very important, if you can remember them, they tell us a lot about our psychology. We are in the dream world without the constraints of society, so what you are dreaming about is usually coming from what’s inside you. If you can remember that when you wake up in the morning, you can see yourself as you really are. You may be shocked by what you see, but that’s your reality, that’s how you really are without all the trappings of society to keep you acting in certain ways.

If you study your dreams, they can bring a wealth of information and knowledge, which is missed if you just let them go. If you can see your dreams, you’re going to discover so much about yourself. It’s like a valuable book of your psychology. Not remembering dreams is a missed opportunity. However, it doesn’t really matter to those who don’t care about self-knowledge, because they may be more interested in having a nice sleep. But for those who want to search more into themselves and look into the nature of life, it’s a huge opportunity to learn.

You can learn so much more than just seeing your subconscious when you remember dreams, as they take place in the astral plane and there are spiritual teachings and valuable information given in them.

A lot of my dreams though are just sort of random images or very vague, I mean I can’t see what I can learn from something like that?

What you can learn from that is that something needs to change in you in order to have clearer, more coherent dreams, and that there are elements of your subconscious which are very strong. The stronger the influence of the subconscious during the day, the less you can remember dreams, and the less vibrant and clear they are. By being more awake and more conscious in daily life you can have clearer dreams, and then begin to wake up in them. By waking up, I mean knowing that you’re in a dream, but you have to have a certain level of conscious awareness in dreams for that, which requires a certain level of awareness in daily life.

Sometimes though, dreams may not be remembered because of tiredness, or due to a very busy schedule – or even just being engrossed in thoughts during the day. Another problem can be the lack of training to remember dreams, as the normal course of events may be to wake up, turn the alarm clock off and get straight up. However, it’s worth laying still when you wake up and going back over your dreams, and then writing them down in a diary, which also helps you to focus upon remembering them. Having the intention to remember them and trying to have out-of-body experiences when going to sleep also helps in this process as you’re going to sleep in a different way.

You mean the intention is important? If I lie down, if I just think about going to sleep, that’s what will happen?

If you try to have an out-of-body experience and you go to sleep with the intention of trying to remember your dreams (two different things), the intention to remember your dreams helps you to remember them straight away when you wake up. But going to sleep trying to have an out-of-body experience helps your level of awareness in your dreams anyway, because you go into sleep in a much lighter way, and if you’re fortunate, then you can actually be aware of the whole process of falling asleep and go into the astral plane consciously.

There are various stages that everyone goes through when going to sleep. You can be aware of those if, as you are falling asleep you concentrate on one thing, whatever it may be. Through that you can experience the different stages of sleep, which end with an out-of-body experience, while the body is asleep here in the three-dimensional world. Remember that dreams and out-of-body experiences are best used for spiritual growth.

What is meant when you talk about self-knowledge? I mean, I myself, I know what I look like and I know what makes me angry and unhappy – is that what you mean?

Knowing that you’re angry or what makes you unhappy is something, but there’s much more to self-knowledge than that, it has an enormous depth and is a part of a wider process of inner transformation that leads to enlightenment.

Belsebuub

Berkeley, California, December 2007

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