We can explore the abyss or hell out of the body and get knowledge of darkness, including that of inner or subconscious darkness, which is very useful.

Dante and Virgil in hell – The stormy blast of hell, with restless fury, drives the spirits on

However, it’s not possible to do this thoroughly without having a special body which enables us to go to places out of the body that would otherwise be inacessable. This is due to the heaviness of the laws in hell, its a bit like having a diving suit to go to the depths of the ocean. The practice of Alchemy creates the inner bodies which allow a greater level of exploration, these bodies are also receptacles for the higher Being to be within.

Most people have ordinary astral bodies and are on a cycle of lives. We come into to this world to be born into a human body take a body with the possibility of awakening and at the end of a life we return from where we came. A day is a reflection of this cycle as we wake each morning to live each day and then with sleep to leave our bodies to return to the dimension we exist in before birth and after death.

Within the body is a mass of different elements of energy, which are the ego states, born through existences from the creative sexual energy. Within this is the essence, the consciousness, what is the real us, that which has come into matter from the source consciousness, the Absolute with the purpose of gaining experience, realizing its own existence and returning to the source self-realised through the path of enlightenment.

Human consciousness is trapped and held together with the multitude of egos and the personality by the lunar phantom form, which is the ordinary astral body that people have, who have not created the inner bodies through Alchemy.

Influencing this is the moon, which sends its vibrations into the region of the fifth dimension where dreams occur, those vibrations then resonate in the personalities of those who have finished their time in the world, and slowly these personalities evaporate up to the moon.

Out of the body we can travel through the sickly emanations of the abyss and see those who exist in a world of darkness, some hide in the ground in tombs in the underworld with their vile states, which were mostly hidden in life and hidden from view of the world.

The majority of people exist in subconscious states in the astra plane, where they are confronted and assaulted by negative forces which are beyond their knowledge or control. Those who are afflicted have little or no knowledge of their affliction, knowing no other state, or no other way of living. In this state a person is afflicted by the unseen, by the different selves, by the larvae, the harpies which come to feed, the incubus, the succubae, the entities of darkness, and exists within a low vibration. Each person has within them elements through the spine which connect them to lower regions and bring it down into even lower regions, which are experienced in nightmares. Occasionally the person, through something physical or internal, is pulled down and experiences the fear, frustration, and anguish of the inferior dimensions, which are the abyss. And that is part of nature, and life. And those in the purgatory (the astral world for those with ordinary phantom astral bodies) bide time until the forces from the coccyx bone drag the essential parts of the psyche downwards when the cycle of lives is finished, and they enter through the jaws of the crocodile.

Now the phantom astral form, the multitude of selves, of different larvae, and its consciousness, have around them what’s known as the personality. This gives the animation to the person, and then, having a body, is recognizably someone that we know—friends, neighbors, work colleagues, etc. But the unseen world of dreams continues, and it’s real, and it’s going on at every single moment, all of this which manifests in the physical three-dimensional world, at the same time exists in the world of dreams and the astral plane, because all the dimensions are here and now, and through all of this, life goes on in the world of form.

This three-dimensional world of form is felt as permanent, when in fact it’s temporary. And the content of a person’s psychology continues from over there to here, it’s exactly the same, but it doesn’t have a body when it’s there. And just as here it sleeps, so over there too it sleeps—it’s in a state of darkness, bound by the subconscious, linked to the abyss. And in this world of forms the illusion and the sleep and the dream continue, and the impressions of life get sent into the psyche, which forms shapes, colors, patterns, which become buildings, people, and so on, which become the dreams at night and daydreams during the day.

And living in this dream, a life passes, a life spent in happiness and sadness, and a multiplicity of different states. Even its happiness is not true happiness, the pleasures only bind and blind one to reality, and remain unseen. The individual is completely unaware of the situation that they’re in or of the forces contending against them. Although there is fun and laughter, it is echoed by tragedy, for all people, who are victims of this terrible process of nature, which both creates and destroys.

Facing this is a spark of consciousness within, a divine spark which is virtually drowned from the weight of the darkness and the subconscious and the various forms which surround it, which pollute the psyche, taint, color, change, and alter it. These perceptions engulf the spark of light, which has hardly a radiance being so drowned, and so small. But all life exists because of this spark of consciousness, which gives hope of a re-union with divinity.

Life in the three-dimensional world enables the consciousness to grasp and experience reality; however, in the world of dreams is the actual state of the psyche. To see the way that your psyche is, simply look into your dreams and then you’ll see what you really are psychologically. If you can penetrate through the world of dreams and see what it really is, and travel through the different layers into the lower realms where those whose time has passed go, and to the higher realms where those who are not animals are, then you can see more of the actual picture of life. Now, it is for those who wish to awaken to discover these things, those who want to stay in the sleep of consciousness will do just as they feel—sleep, regardless of their ideas. And whether a life is full of joy, pain, happiness, or sadness—it all passes.

So looking into dreams is looking further into the reality of life and into the nature of the human being, and through it you can see yourself as you really are, and see what is actually within you. And what lives in a spiritual realm is of the spirit, not of the earth and physical matter. If on the path to awakening you see that which lives, the truly spiritual, then the light which gives life can come to you and bring you out from the states of hell and purgatory and all that’s animal. But you can only see what you are. As we move toward the light, it moves toward us, just as those who are attracted to things on the earth and love lower states, themselves are attracted downwards to lower regions.

Q: How come we are so made of darkness? How come the process is so hard? Is it to do just with this particular world and this planet? It seems like it’s a very difficult state to be in, with so much darkness within us.

Belsebuub: There are reasons this planet is so difficult to awaken in, such as planetary karma, the effects of demons and the release of so many from the abyss, to give a last opportunity, in a practical sense though, the trouble is the enjoyment of the darkness, which overrides the enjoyment of the essence or the spiritual. There is enough light, enough consciousness to give sufficient free will to be able to overcome the darkness, the trouble is that everybody’s used to darkness and enjoys it. But most have the potential to lift themselves out of it, and to get free from it.

Darkness plays a very useful role, because from it comes knowledge, the consciousness is submerged in it for a reason. As we shine light on darkness, we have knowledge of the darkness, and learn about how all of the things of its nature exist, and how they are within, and that darkness we turn into light within, which has knowledge of darkness, and that’s how we go to the light.

There is enough light to begin with to be able to work toward breaking the darkness within, and overcoming it. And as light, consciousness, is increased, it joins with more light, and then the light saves and raises a person up. No one is alone who attempts this—if they were alone there’d be absolutely no way to get out of the basic human condition. Having fulfilled specific conditions, divinity raises up those who put the spiritual work in, and are able to give up the pleasures of the egos.

As long as pleasures are toward darkness, then that’s what a person gravitates toward, and that’s what comes to them, what they go with toward the end of their lives. But if a person’s will action and work is toward light and the spirit in sufficient measure, then the spirit comes to them and they go to it, and it gives light and raises them up. But the pleasures of the egos are a great problem.

What do you mean by “true men”?

There are essences who have male or female human bodies, and yet what a person really is, can be different. If someone incarnates the human soul on the first of eight initiations, in the first of three stages in the process of awakening, and then develop it to maturity by the fifth initiation, they become what’s called a “true man” and they are no longer simply animals who have an intellect.

The human soul is incarnated at the first initiation and matues by the fifth, then the female Spirit with the sixth initiation and finally the male spirit at the seventh, forming the first trinity of the Being. The consciousness is merged with the male spirit, which is a male aspect of the Being, that’s why Jesus said about Mary Magdalene, “Leave her that I will make her male.” That’s in the first stage, the first mountain. In the second stage it’s repeated, but with the Christ/Son instead of the soul. So once again on the fifth initiation a person becomes a true man, but this time at a higher level. For each of the initiations a body has to be created to enable the consciousness to function in a dimension or plane of existence. At the fifth body a person becomes a “true man”.

With each of the bodies that are created spiritual values are gained, so for example, when a solar astral body is created, access is gained to the higher (solar) astral plane, which is of a superior nature to the lower or lunar astral, and a person can escape the confines of purgatory. A superior solar mental body then gives access into the higher mental planes. And in that way, as you go through the path you have initiations and create new inner bodies, gaining access into higher planes and dimensions. But, it’s possible to create these bodies and still sleep psychologically. There are people who have done this work in past lives, and have created some or many of the bodies, and there are some too who have risen in this cycle of lives and have fallen, and they have all their inner bodies, they just need to raise the Kundalini and reunite with the divine parts. Behind each person there is a well of experience, and many different esoteric things which are kept from life to life.

In all of this, what are people referring to when they talk about God?

It can mean different things, depending upon the religion, culture or teaching. For example, it can refer to the Absolute/Brahman, the unknowable source of the all, or to the Father/Vishnu, or to the trinity at the beginning of life – Father/Son/Mother, Osiris/Horus/Isis, or it can refer to aspects of divinity such as the word, the holy spirit, AUM, or to the conscious divine Beings that inhabit the universe, angels, elohim, devas.

However, in practice, it is best understood through perception, not by conceptualizing it. Thought can never know divinity. You’ve got to perceive and experience it. Divinity is an experience of consciousness, not of the intellect.

When a person gets themselves aligned with divine will and law then communication with divinity can become a reality and that’s how get to real esoteric knowledge. Even going consciously into the astral plane won’t give profound knowledge while a person is animalistic and far from the principles of divinity. Some go out of their bodies consciously, but are full of arrogance, and intellectual ideas, effectively demanding an explanation for the way that things exist. That’s not the way to get a real spiritual experience at all. True spiritual experiences are something different, and much of it is seeing one’s own inner poverty, the wretchedness of one’s own state in comparison to the true spirit, and much more. That’s reality, and reality is true humility. It’s an objective reality that all human beings are wretched beings who have the opportunity to reach for the spirit and incarnate it within and unite with it. That is reality. The more a person sees of themselves, the more they understand what everyone consists of.

This is objective reality. It’s not the fantasy of intellectual ideas that people have about spirituality, which they put against other intellectual ideas, weigh them up and come to the best ideological understanding or belief—that’s not objective esoteric knowledge. Esoteric spirituality is the direct experience of reality, the communication and union with the divine. It’s the inner knowledge of the heart, which must be felt. Although there is much that blocks the perception of reality.

You can have an experience out of the body and be revealed for what you are, and that can be terrible and shocking. You have to be quite prepared for that. There is no room for wonderful illusory ideas about oneself if you are carrying out a serious esoteric work. Esoteric experiences can be profoundly moving, if you can reach to them.

You’ve been saying that dreams can really reveal a lot about how we are internally, but a lot of dreams are so strange, with weird things that I can’t necessarily identify as anything I see in myself, so how to really understand those odd elements—like strange places and objects, or whatever. Sometimes it’s very clear, like if I’m hitting someone in a dream, that’s very obvious that I have an ego state of anger or something within me, but other times it’s less obvious, and I was wondering if you could comment on that.

They are all part of the mental forms that I was talking about, and also the illusory world that’s created from the different shapes, colors, forms, etc. that are found in daily life. The subconscious creates from the impressions of life. Sexual energy is the foundation for this creative process, and the different mental forms are jumbled together at sleep, just as they come up in the day and there’s all sorts of thoughts feelings and images arising. The different egos use the mental impressions formed in living and they become scenes of anger, fear, lust, etc. The three-dimensional world brings the mental images (and the egos that feed within them) back to reality. But in dreams there’s no three-dimensional world, the psyche is free to create its own illusory reality out of the mental forms stored in memory, which either overrides what is actually happening in the fifth dimension where dreams occur, or merge with it and distort it. There is less chance for that to happen here as the three dimensional world locks the psyche into actual physical forms. While out of the body, the egos are agents to create illusory scenes out of stored mental forms and astral matter and due to the low energy of the egos the psyche gets pulled into lower regions which have their influences, and these influences come upon the psyche, and then it’s combined with the subjective impressions of the world it’s created, and there you have the basis for the kind of dreams you were mentioning.

Not all dreams are of those kinds, some can be objective perceptions of the fifth dimension, others can be symbolic teachings or spiritual experiences. For many people however it’s just chaotic, as the psyche itself is chaotic. But with this work an order is created in the psyche, it enables a person to get out of the region of purgatory, ending visits to the abyss and its influences. Eventually creating a stable mind with the ability to detach oneself from it and to use it as a tool. Looking into dreams is an aspect of seeing reality, as you look into your psyche and discover much you didn’t know about yourself.

I wanted to know about the order that you mentioned, and how to implement it better into your life, or how to implement that order psychologically and the effect that it has on dreams. It’s something that’s taken me a long time to come to terms with, because I never gave much value to order, but the more that I try it I can see that it helps, but I feel like there’s more to implementing order into your life.

The mind, like the rest of creation operates with mathematical principles. The Abyss is in chaos for a reason; from chaos comes order, and order enables us to create and act efficiently and clearly. In the psyche are many elements which create disorder, and by that I mean they make thoughts and images go in all directions, feelings arise which have all kinds of permutations to them, lots of different feelings and emotions crop up, and the mind itself churns away. And as it churns, the energies from the lower regions come up through the spine, and they hypnotize the whole of the psyche. Being immersed in this, then actions and thought become extremely disordered; whereas if the mind is focused, then you’re able to do things clearly, and that helps to hold back the innate disorder which the human psyche is in.

As you go on in this work you break that hypnotic spell, you break the connection with the inferior regions, and awaken the Kundalini (the ascending serpent)—a divine energy which goes up the spine. And that energy helps to stabilize the psyche, because with the awakening of the Kundalini at the beginning of the first stage of the esoteric work, the psyche is no longer affected by those emanations from the Abyss, from the lower regions, they are ended as the Kundalini rises as it is the end of the Kundabuffer (the descending serpent), which is the mechanism through which they travel from the inferior regions to the human organism.

If you progress more, you’ll gain a detachment from the mind and a control over it according to the stage that you’re at. This helps to focus and be clear, so that when you sit, you switch off your thoughts and you’re just here. And when it really works then you’re in the emanations of the Being, and you can sit in these blissful emanations of spirituality, with your mind silent, able to think whenever you want. And that is when the psyche is in a greater state of order.

Being in that state, we can obviously do things more efficiently. Being in disorder, creates external disorder, which results in the state of the world today. Although societies function to a degree in this disorder, the egos constantly bring the psyche into disorder, and the more they are fed, the stronger their hypnotic effect, the more disordered the psyche, and the more disordered life becomes.

What happens to those, that do the work, and for whatever reason their life gets taken away, and let’s say they’ve reached a certain plateau, what if in their next lives they don’t get the opportunity to continue the work, what happens from there?

That would only happen if they’d reached their last life. As long as someone is doing the esoteric work in deeds, then they’re given an opportunity in their next life. Those who turn against the work can even be put into countries and places where there is no chance of finding it in their next life. There are countries where people are persecuted for studying or practicing anything esoteric, and that’s a karma. Some people can even be put into those countries for many lives in order to pay steep karmas, and so it depends upon the individual as to what the future holds in store—it all comes as a result of cause and effect. What is sewn here and now, is eventually reaped later on, it’s mathematical. Of course, there’s repentance and forgiveness as well, fortunately.

Could you talk a little about the forces that come to stop someone who’s trying to explore the astral realm, and I was also wondering why it seems like when I talk to people who are trying to do this, some run into these forces more than others?

Forces of darkness, demons and sinister entities are always around. They’re always there to try to stop anybody who wants to awaken. They have a hierarchical system, and are actually organized in spite of being in an awful state. Watch how dictators organize for example, the motivating factors are ideology and fear. Fear plays a big part in the hierarchical structure of demons, they have a structure and powers, which by their very nature fights against the light and hates it and everyone who is for it and part of it.

Anyone who goes into the light has to fight against the forces of darkness, and has to ask for help to fight against them, because what comes against an individual who is trying to awaken is great, very great. You should never think that you know the forces of darkness enough to feel confident or safe, because the very thing that you feel safe and confident with is the very thing that they can use against you. And they know each person in and out and know what the weaknesses are and will exploit them. They know the egos, and will magnify and intensify those egos, and will influence other people, and if you go into the astral, they’ll be there waiting. It’s difficult to fight against them, and you should not underestimate them, but they have their limits. If their power was so great, then no one would have a chance to awaken, but their power is limited. And whoever is working towards awakening in light has divine help to assist in the war against them.

And there is a war going on, a war that can’t be seen here, a struggle of light and darkness, which profoundly affects the state of the world and everyone alive. Beings of light and of darkness are locked in combat—the prizes are the essences of the people of the earth. It’s all too easy to stay doing nothing, and then to be taken down where the demons will get their way with whoever goes down. Some become part of the hierarchy, some are just victims. Forces of evil operate through those who are evil, and influence events. There are individuals within groups that are consciously awake in darkness, there’s a group of this kind that has a lot of influence and power, negative forces can operate through individuals and what they organize here, having profound effects when they have power, and darkness loves worldly power. The hierarchy of light is letting this run so that the processes of karma can operate upon the world. Countering this in the physical world are extraterrestrials to a limited extent (limited as it’s not their planetary karma, and karma works in laws which they wouldn’t violate) and a small number of people who are trying to practice the work and who try to get the message of light to humanity. Very few people genuinely look for the light though, even amongst those who do know about it. So the world continues in darkness with just a small number of people trying to bring light to it. And through these people is a manifestation of whatever spiritual help can be brought to individuals wishing to awaken.

Each person creates opportunities for themselves and for others with their activity. If someone is passive then they lack those opportunities and stop the flow of spiritual help. It’s activity which creates and moves things, and activity helps to fight against opposing sinister forces. There are many forces—both in nature and forces of darkness beyond the three dimensional world, which are opposed to the inner revolution of awakening. And they will struggle against anyone who wishes to get out of the darkness humanity finds itself in.

These things are real, you only have to wait and you’ll see these things coming true when life is over and when the cycle of lives end. To go through the corridor of the abyss and to pass the toll collectors you only have to do nothing, remain part of nature, and you’ll see these things coming true. And then you’ll see those demons, but you won’t be able to get away from them, you’ll be in their realm, locked in for a long time; so long that time becomes irrelevant.

This is a spiritual war and the stakes are extremely high. It’s better to practice now, and get to know the things that are against you, to see what is fighting you, and what is stopping you from awakening. Get to know them now, while you still have the chance, while you have a body and time. And then you can get knowledge from the darkness and raise yourself up out of it, into the light.

The opportunity to do this is now. To leave it to time is to wait for complete failure and tragedy, as human life is a tragedy that the majority of people can’t see. It really is a terrible tragedy, involving so many people, it’s beyond words. The little free will which exists enables the struggle against darkness, which is always supported with help from the spiritual, and it’s divine help, contact with divinity, and ultimately union with it, which saves an individual.

You touched a bit about how many people have done this work before in past lives and may have created bodies and so forth and I guess all of us have had some experience in past lives of what you’re speaking about. How come we don’t remember?

Because at a stage of death, the memory is completely wiped off. Then a person is born as a little baby and whatever memories may exist, which are usually very rare, then get squashed by the personality, and the developing brain. You just can’t remember anything, it’s all just gone.

There’s a work which each person does throughout the sum of lives, and that gets buried when someone falls, loses their spiritual awakening, and so it’s buried in the ground (in the fifth dimension). And as we walk along the path, at a certain stage we dig into the ground, we go into the earth, we find that treasure and dig it up, and we also find a musical instrument. The kind of musical instrument represents the esoteric work that has been done in the past. We play the instrument and the note or tone that’s played is the note of the Being, the musical instrument describes the status of the Being, how much it’s done and everything. And so at that point along the path of awakening we unbury the work we’ve done in the past, and we reacquire it.

In the process of awakening we reacquire lots of different things. So what we had in the past comes back to us. There’s much within every person that’s waiting to be uncovered, a whole marvel of spiritual treasures waiting to be found.


A talk derived from personal explorations out of the body. Oregon, USA 2009 (the last recorded public appearance)